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 Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant

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Mistral
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PostSubject: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:02 am

Malcolm
In JP, he's the light hearted life enjoying chaos theoretician. In TLW, he's frustrated, sarcastic action man. I don't really understand the chance of heart in his persona. I mean I suppose from producers perspective you can't really have your new main character to have exactly same goofy/philosophical characteristics of the first film, especially if you expect him to be performing all sorts of Tom Cruise stuff... however I think some sort of compromise should have been order. Don't make him direct action man. TLW Malcolm just doesn't feel like JP Malcolm, not the same human being, I remember thinking this already in 1997. Not only does he look entirely different, he feels so too. No-one changes so drastically in 4 years or however long it was supposed to be in the film universe. Sure, you expect him to have gone through little bit of trauma after the events of Jurassic Park, however even after the initial T-Rex attack he's still cracking jokes and having same characteristics. He never even sees the raptors either. Are we supposed to believe he's developed trauma afterwards, or some sort of angst towards life? Was he in the hospital for long time afterwards, like in the novel? Maybe he had personal issues between JP and TLW, you know frustrations with his many girlfriends and kids and whatever? What is he even doing at the time of the film? Apparently breaking NDA embargo on TV and interviews, but is he still a mathematician, scientist? What does he do? Why would Hammond want him to the island rather than Grant? I don't understand his character in TLW.

Grant
In JP he's serious no-nonsense guy Hammond flew in to work as consult. When sh*t hits the fan, he looks genuinely tense and scared. He also cares for the well being of others. In JP3, just like Malcolm, it doesn't feel like the same character anymore. I don't want to go into the Sattler thing, because relationships ending is normal so that's that. However since the first film he's not developed a habit of cracking sarcastic jokes, showing great annoyance at almost all of his companions, and new temperamental issues. But also now he doesn't seem to have lots of caution when roaming through dinosaur filled island. Yeah whatever, let's just keep loudly talking and yelling to each other, I know this stuff. Then in tense situations he seems to sometimes forget danger for some reason. "My God. It's calling for help" he says after stopping for listening, rather than get the hell out of there. Furthermore he hates InGen dinosaurs and thinks as theme as mere monsters, not worth studying, yet continues to dig for the "real" ones and wonders why he's not get the financial backing. I don't really understand why real paleontologist wouldn't at least attempt to make some comparisons between the InGen dinosaurs and fossilized ones, rather than ignore them completely. JP Grant seemed academic enough not to dismiss them entirely even towards the end of the film.

The other recurring charactera, you know Sattler settling up with another guy, and Tim/Lex cameos are perfectly fine with me canon wise. They're not really contradicting anything. Hammond becoming more of an environmentalist in later years is not out of realms of possibility either. With Wu I don't know what they are doing with it, IMO his role in JW is nonsensical just as much as most of the plot points in that film are, however given that he was just generic exposition side character in JP I guess we shouldn't venture too far into discussing that as we knew very little about him in the first place. He wasn't the novel supreme geneticist, he was just some employee that might have been high in Hammond's hierarchy or not.


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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:13 am

All I can say is that while Grant is awesome in JP, I hate him in JP3. Like hate to want him dead with the other characters in JP3. They ruined his character in that movie IMO. 

Malcolm is awesome on both movies, by the way. It's why he's my favorite from the original trio too.


Wu really needs development and more deph but I can't expect much more than a Dr.Moreau level of mad science, that IF he's in JW2. Most of his personality I take from JP novels, even if JW made him much different than it. And I think like in JP novels, Wu IS the supreme genius geneticist that created all those dinosaurs. The problem is that they cut his role in JP movie for some reason.


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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:16 am

Malcolm's my favorite in JP too (both film and novel), but in TLW I think I like only Nick van Greenpeace and Gymnastics-Kelly less than him. I don't know, he just doesn't seem to fit. They could have had Bruce Willis playing him in that movie and it would've been just as different.

JP3 Grant is like parody of the original.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:44 am

@Mistral wrote:
Malcolm's my favorite in JP too (both film and novel), but in TLW I think I like only Nick van Greenpeace and Gymnastics-Kelly less than him. I don't know, he just doesn't seem to fit. They could have had Bruce Willis playing him in that movie and it would've been just as different.

JP3 Grant is like parody of the original.
I love Ian Malcolm both on JP movies and novels. He's one of my favorite characters of the franchise.  

I hate Nick Van Greenpeace too.  Laughing

In TLW I like Malcolm too, but I saw many people that disliked his character on the movie, said it was off what he was. I really think it adds more for his character deph, he was still sarcastic and all moral lesson while having to deal with the dangers of Sorna. It's like Ian Malcolm when he's being chased by dinosaurs and having to protect his daugther.  Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:58 am

Nick's only saving grace is that he suddenly disappears from the movie at the end of second act Wink

I must say that as much as I don't like Film TLW Malcolm, at least he's not as annoyed at life as Novel TLW Malcolm seems to be. That guy seemed irritated at everything! His long monologues about evolution and whatnot were still good but overall it felt like negativity overload on that book.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:01 am

@Mistral wrote:
Nick's only saving grace is that he suddenly disappears from the movie at the end of second act Wink

I must say that as much as I don't like Film TLW Malcolm, at least he's not as annoyed at life as Novel TLW Malcolm seems to be. That guy seemed irritated at everything! His long monologues about evolution and whatnot were still good but overall it felt like negativity overload on that book.
Hahaha yes, some people hate him in JP novel because of that too. I always found him funny with his monologues, and how Hammond got angry everytime he was right on something.  Laughing

And I liked to read about his philosophic monologues, don't know why. I think Malcolm really had a charisma and this got in me. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:23 am

His monologues in original JP novel are amazing, especially towards the end when he's full of morphine and dying Very Happy and I always get a kick out of the "consider cotton prices" line in the middle of one of those long speeches, it's just so weird argument for someone to make.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:50 am

I definitely agree with TLW Malcolm being extremely different from JP Malcolm. I've read in JPLegacy once about someone in the forum who, as a kid, thought that they were two different characters.
What's the sense of using the same character in the sequel clearly in order to attract the audience and then you find out that he's completely different? A little change would have been great, but no, they feel like completely different characters. It doesn't help, in my case, that in the italian version of the movie even the dubber is different from JP to TLW...

I don't agree with Grant though. While there is some nonsense connection between JP and JP3 due to the script (Grant hating InGen's dinosaurs calling them monster, while in JP he called them animals), I feel like it's still the same characters as he was in JP, with the same seriousness, same snobbery towards what doesn't interest him (look at his reaction when Hammond and Malcolm talk about chaos in the helicopter in JP), and also the same fears (he really doesn't want to land on that island, and he looks scared as f--- when he recognizes Raptors' eggs).
Besides, he still looks very similar to the JP Grant, unlike Malcolm.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:21 pm

Overall, I appreciate JP Malcolm more than TLW Malcolm.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:29 pm

@owenpratt wrote:
Besides, he still looks very similar to the JP Grant, unlike Malcolm.

The only thing that makes sense in TLW Malcolm's appearance is the lack of leather jacket & accessories when he heads to the island. Everything else, the grim look, facial expressions, mood, dialogue, action moves... ugh

There are couple of lines of sarcastic dialogue I do like and which remind of JP Malcolm in some distant level, but they are far in between and very quaint. Relationship handling with Sarah and Kelly is "tolerable" at best but again nothing like you would think with the first film in mind

But yeah, JP3 Grant, as much as I don't see him as the same guy in the first film personality wise, at least he looks the same I've gotta give you that. Now even though people do change between the years and not everybody stays the same at all (nor should they necessarily... I look at you Indiana Jones) I think it was better for Grant not do complete 180 degree turnaround in appearance like Malcolm had. That would have been too much. And as Grant was outdoor kind of guy with practical mind and no sense of style really, it's pretty understandable for him to look more or less the same 8 years later. Or in whatever year JP3 was supposedly taking place.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:09 pm

I don't really mind any difference in Malcolm's character between the two movies; at least they didn't have him break his leg...again... and spend half the story going on morphine-induced chaos theory rants... again... (-glares at TLW novel-). I actually kind of liked seeing a different side of the character, although a lot of that movie could still have been done better, in my opinion. I'm a lot angrier about Sarah Harding's complete idiocy and incompetence compared to the book version.

The way they wrote Grant in JP3 was terrible, though. He's just bitter and unhappy about everything; while I can understand some of that after the first movie, the somewhat positive ending to JP seems a bit depressing now. They could have made him considerably happier with his life, and it needn't have had a negative impact on the story. The whole "I really don't want to go through this live dinosaur fiasco again" angle would still have worked fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:39 pm

@smaugtheterrible wrote:
at least they didn't have him break his leg...again... and spend half the story going on morphine-induced chaos theory rants... again... (-glares at TLW novel-).

Yes... I think Crichton was bored at that point and just wanted to make sure Malcolm had opportunity to talk about evolution in the second part of the novel, you know the subject he really wanted to explore.

@smaugtheterrible wrote:
I'm a lot angrier about Sarah Harding's complete idiocy and incompetence compared to the book version.

At least film-Sarah doesn't try to kill anyone though. As horrible as Dodgson had been to her, there was no need for her to search revenge and kick him for T-Rex to catch. It was kind of like murder/kill in a way?
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:26 pm

@Mistral wrote:
Malcolm
TLW Malcolm just doesn't feel like JP Malcolm, not the same human being, I remember thinking this already in 1997. Not only does he look entirely different, he feels so too. No-one changes so drastically in 4 years or however long it was supposed to be in the film universe. Sure, you expect him to have gone through little bit of trauma after the events of Jurassic Park, however even after the initial T-Rex attack he's still cracking jokes and having same characteristics.

That's the most heartbreaking part of his character imo. Not only did he go through a lot of trauma on the island, getting attacked by a T rex and barely surviving with a nearly-lethal wound (I think he was in "survival mode" for the rest of the movie and hadn't begun to process everything yet) but after the island when he spoke out, he lost his job, livelihood and all credibility. He tried to speak out about the park so no one else had to suffer like he did, and in return he was made into a laughingstock. Stuff like that can really change a person.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:58 am

While I do think the change from JP Malcolm to TLW Malcolm is very jarring, to the point that you could almost mistake them for different characters. In fact, I almost wonder if you swapped Jeff out for Sam's character and give him all the jaded and alert character traits of Malcolm, and maybe instead of having a daughter, Kelly, to work off of he has to try and work at his marriage with Ellie which is currently going through some rough stages. Then again, this should have formed the basis for Alan's arc in Jurassic Park 3 rather than a lame retread of his arc from the first film and NOT married to Ellie, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

With that said, as a kid I did maintain the belief that the four years since the Isla Nublar incident were so difficult for Malcolm, with his career and credibility in ruins and probably suffering PTSD after almost being killed by a T. rex. Four intense years can change a person a lot; I can honestly say I'm not exactly the same person as I was in 2012/13 and I didn't even have the excuse of a dinosaur-infested island.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:11 am

Yeah but if you're going to change character so drastically for reasons of ??? (I still think it's because they needed "serious action man" for the main role), it would be better to have at least some explanation for it in the film. You know the years between the films and what he is doing right now. Now we know nothing except he appears on TV spreading the truth and not respecting NDAs, and is not having particularly smooth time in handling relationships. The latter which we already kinda knew from what he told to Grant and handled Sattler.

I mean I know most of the audiences don't care either way but like couple of lines of throwaway exposition dialogue would have helped. Maybe Lex and Tim could've helped in that and make their brief cameos more worthwhile.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:29 pm

@Mistral wrote:
Yeah but if you're going to change character so drastically for reasons of ??? (I still think it's because they needed "serious action man" for the main role), it would be better to have at least some explanation for it in the film. You know the years between the films and what he is doing right now. Now we know nothing except he appears on TV spreading the truth and not respecting NDAs, and is not having particularly smooth time in handling relationships. The latter which we already kinda knew from what he told to Grant and handled Sattler.

I mean I know most of the audiences don't care either way but like couple of lines of throwaway exposition dialogue would have helped. Maybe Lex and Tim could've helped in that and make their brief cameos more worthwhile.

True, a few more lines of dialogue could have made more of a difference. I liked that Lex and Tim had a brief appearance in the movie, and as you said, they probably could have provided some more exposition.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:49 pm

This was sort of suggested by the Jurassic Cast Podcast in their old TLW commentary track already (oh boy do those guys looooooooooove that film) but maybe when they go back to San Diego there should have been a scene before the T-Rex arrival. You know in Malcolm's apartment, between him and Sarah. Sort of intermission.

There you could have shed light on Malcolm's past four years a little and why he's the man he is today. His apartment could've worked as visual proof of that.

Or indeed, at the beginning. At the very least someone should referenced on him being a whole different person, at least that might have worked as concious in-joke.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:03 am

Well now with Malcolm confirmed for JP5 (yey), they will have to find a good middle ground with the character development. The first step is obviously writing him in the script naturally, so that it won't feel forced (which I'm 100% confident is possible,), but furthermore the personality traits will have to be re-examined:

I don't want him to be the same exact comic relief chaos theoretician as in JP, as that would not only be rehash but make the sudden oneoff change in personality in TLW very obscure in retrospect. However, I also don't want him to be strictly the serious action man of TLW, as that role change never really made change in the first place IMO and made him look like entirely different character. Also at 20+ years older that's not something you'd want for him anymore. So as I said, there needs to be a middle ground between the two, the comic relief sciency stuff + seriousness. As well as obviously brand new traits.
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:09 pm

Whatever the case, I think everyone will be careful not to get him to repeat his performance from Independence Day: Resurgence which most would agree was a very watered down version of his character from the original. I would like to stress, however, that Bayona is a much better filmmaker than Roland Emmerich is (or even really, ever was) so I believe he will be a lot more conscious about how he directs Jeff and how the character is portrayed as a logical extension of his character from the first film(s).
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PostSubject: Re: Changed characteristics of Malcolm & Grant   Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:25 pm

I want him to appear like TLW or even the JP book version of himself. But that's me.
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