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 The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...

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Dr. Wu
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PostSubject: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSun Jun 13, 2021 10:59 am

I love all of the films in the franchise and I'm very excited for Dominion but I have some questions.

The upcoming prologue for Dominion takes place in the Cretaceous but there are dinosaurs that shouldn't be together. I know the franchise has scientifically inaccurate dinosaurs but this is too much.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/bace823d-17bc-428c-8309-ae5ff80bd98b/scale-to-width/755

Deinonychus being in Dominion confuses me as I thought the Velociraptors in the franchise were meant to be Deinonychus as real Velociraptors were very small. In the first JP a large fossilized Velociraptor was found in Montana. Are there any Velociraptors found in Montana?

I guess it was only a matter of time when JP/JW franchise featured it's own inaccurate Mesozoic era (though the prologue for Dominion only features the Cretaceous).

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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSun Jun 13, 2021 2:43 pm

I agree, the prologue seems bizarre but I guess we have to accept that the franchise just keeps getting dumbed down; Colin Trevorrow doesn't seem like he's really a Crichton or even a Spielberg-type but someone who responds to the usual Hollywood action schlock, the stuff that the first two movies distinctly were not. I assume their excuse is going to be a combination of "Pangaea" (hence why species whose fossils were found on different continents are living together), and creative license. They really shouldn't call it a "documentary sequence" though, especially as it's already been done better in "Walking with Dinosaurs" and the spin-offs or similar things.

It seems that the Deinonychus being in JW:D is another thing they've lifted from the old John Sayles JP4 script. Presumably as the raptors are Deinonychus-sized, the Deinonychus are going to even larger, like Utahraptor sized (at least going by the leaked set pics with prop heads from the creatures).

Spoiler:
 

It actually bears a weird resemblance to the old Utahraptor Kenner toy:
The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Kenner-JP22

There's also been speculation/rumor that
Spoiler:
 

I don't follow your suggestion that the raptors in the films were literally deinonychus, however there seemed to be a bit of confusion at the time Crichton was writing the original novel as to whether they were the same species:

Quote :
This new view of dinosaurs, in part, inspired the 1988 book Predatory Dinosaurs of the World by paleo-artist Gregory S. Paul. Not only was the volume chock-full of illustrations of feathered dinosaurs, but it also attempted to revise some dinosaur taxonomy. Paul noted the similarities between the skeletons of the Velociraptor from Mongolia and the Deinonychus skeletons from North America. They were so similar, in fact, that he decided to group the Deinonychus fossils under the name Velociraptor, as the older name took precedence according to the rules by which organisms are named.

Paleontologists did not agree with this change—Velociraptor was kept distinct from Deinonychus—but Paul’s book was a hit with the general public. And one of the people who read the book was author Michael Crichton. We know this because in the acknowledgements for his novel Jurassic Park, Crichton listed Paul as one of the people who inspired his vision for dinosaurs portrayed in the book, and he used the name Velociraptor to describe the large, sickle-clawed predators that disembowel so many humans in the fictional yarn. The same taxonomy was carried over into the film series, which ultimately made what would otherwise seem to be an abstruse scientific term a household name.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/you-say-velociraptor-i-say-deinonychus-33789870/
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Dr. Wu
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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSun Jun 13, 2021 3:16 pm

@Robotpo Can you explain to me why in the first JP a large fossilized Velociraptor was found in Montana?

For one real Velociraptors are very small and two Velociraptors fossils aren't found in Montana correct?

Would that suggest in the JP lore Velociraptors are always large?

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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSun Jun 13, 2021 3:36 pm

@Dr. Wu wrote:
Would that suggest in the JP lore Velociraptors are always large?

Yes, pretty much. On a filmmaking level, they needed the raptor skeleton to match the actual raptors that appear later on. They always taken creative license (even if the prologue in JW:D apparently goes away over the top). Just assume that in the JP universe paleontologists switched the names - hence someone is probably excavating a deinonycus in Mongolia.  

Also, as I quoted in my earlier post, there seemed to be a theory that raptors and deinonychus were the same species in the early 90's (I think Crichton referred to this in the novel?)
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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSun Jun 13, 2021 7:02 pm

Apparently the IMAX prologue is not actually in the final film, it may just be an IMAX exclusive according to Chris Pugh (who has inside sources) on Twitter.
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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSun Jun 13, 2021 7:46 pm

Please give me a link to his tweet.

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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeMon Jun 14, 2021 2:23 am

@Dr. Wu wrote:
Please give me a link to his tweet.

https://twitter.com/ChrisLikesDinos/status/1404233743741620225
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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeTue Jun 15, 2021 4:01 pm

My thoughts from another post ( https://jurassicmainframe.forumotion.com/t1518p480-general-jurassic-world-dominion-news-thread-v1-0 ):
@JD-man wrote:
In reference to the prologue, seems weird for Trevorrow et al. to throw so many non-contemporary species together in there after all that talk about getting Brusatte as their new dino advisor & making their new Dominion dinos more accurate ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LvahkhNK7A ). Why not just do the prologue with contemporary species? Why not 2 T.rex fighting each other? Why not Anzu instead of Oviraptor, Alamosaurus instead of Dreadnoughtus, Triceratops instead of Nasutoceratops, etc?

In reference to Deinonychus, at least their hands aren't pronated?🤷Seems weird that that's the Deinonychus design they go with after all that talk about getting Brusatte as their new dino advisor & making their new Dominion dinos more accurate. As a basis for comparison, here are some more accurate (& better looking) Deinonychus designs:
-This one's by Willoughby: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rFRGSTJI3CQ/TvibD0PiLrI/AAAAAAAAAKY/kg7a5YXXEtU/s1600/deinonychus_rpr.jpg
-This one's by Bonadonna: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91yMp1Gb9RL.jpg
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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeFri Jun 18, 2021 10:44 am

I'll hold judgement until the movie is out but what I've heard does disappoint me quite a bit. 65 million years ago there's no INGEN, no Masrani, just cavemen riding dinosaurs like in that 1940 documentary One Million BC.

So there's just no excuse for inaccuracies here. I'm totally down with the "theme park monsters" defense for all the present day films, that explanation even resonates with Crichton's original novel. But this is inexcusable. Why are T-Rex and Giganotosaurus, two species separated by 30 million years and different continents battling it out?

Yes, the fossil record is incomplete because so many animals die and aren't fossilized, so we'll never know it all. Which brings me to a thought experiment:

Would it be more realistic to make up a new dinosaur in the Cretaceous under the excuse it wasn't fossilized? It certainly feels that way to me.

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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSat Jun 19, 2021 9:43 pm

@FayhdrianColonist wrote:
Would it be more realistic to make up a new dinosaur in the Cretaceous under the excuse it wasn't fossilized? It certainly feels that way to me.

This reminds me of how Klayton & others have complained that the "ancient giant [theropod] rivalry" story Trevorrow et al. are apparently going for needs Giganotosaurus in order to work ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx-qCI1ayTI&t=8s ). W/all due respect, I have disagree w/that. As much as I like seeing creatures from different times & places in fictional fights, I much prefer seeing the Mesozoic world realized as fully & accurately as possible (which, as previously mentioned, is how Trevorrow et al. have been describing the prologue: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/852549476232855575/853026740393345084/image0.png ). What better way to do that than to show many ppl's favorite dinos interacting in scientifically-plausible ways that have never been seen before on the big-screen? More specifically, since Rexy's a female, I think it'd be especially cool if her Cretaceous ancestor died in a fight against another female over a male &/or nesting site (like eagles: http://web.archive.org/web/20091205035641/https://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/wildlife/two-females-one-male-bald-eagle-fight-over-mating-nest/1055764/ ). Then, Biosyn or Mantah Corp would re-create an accurate T. rex that would eventually fight & lose to Rexy (which makes sense since Rexy is bigger/stronger than an accurate T. rex). In other words, you'd get the same kind of story, but better. No need to make it inaccurate for the sake of awesomeness when accuracy is already awesome.


Last edited by JD-man on Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSun Jun 20, 2021 10:35 am

@FayhdrianColonist wrote:
Would it be more realistic to make up a new dinosaur in the Cretaceous under the excuse it wasn't fossilized? It certainly feels that way to me.

Most likely yeah, though i dont Colin would've done it, given how in earlier drafts of Jurassic World, The Indominus (who used another name at the time) was intended to be an actual dinosaur within the Jurassic Park universe, but he scrapped it in favor of a hybrid, cause he didnt want people to think this was a real dinosaur

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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeThu Jun 24, 2021 9:09 pm

@JD-man wrote:

Then, Biosyn or Mantah Corp would re-create an accurate T. rex that would eventually fight & lose to Rexy (which makes sense since Rexy is bigger/stronger than an accurate T. rex). In other words, you'd get the same kind of story, but better. No need to make it inaccurate for the sake of awesomeness when accuracy is already awesome.

This is a great idea, and would keep their vision intact! I love it.
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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeThu Jun 24, 2021 9:48 pm

^^ I don't know that they get way with making the new "big bad" dinosaur in the sixth film another T-Rex. However, the Deinonychus apparently look like Raptors, so who knows?

BTW, now that it's been released, anyone else just...really underwhelmed with the preview?

From a franchise that has always been built around dinosaur effects comes...a bunch of random digital dinosaurs, doing dinosaur things? Followed by a shi**y outtake from the end of TLW?  Neutral  Question

I don't know guys...I don't trust Trevorrow. Really hope this isn't another "Rise of Skywalker" situation.
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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeThu Jun 24, 2021 11:18 pm

Given how I'm a big fan of JW and FK I do trust Trevorrow. If the leaks are true and they're likely are given how they mention the T. Rex attacking the Drive-In then I'm very excited!

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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeFri Jun 25, 2021 10:50 am

The biostratigraphy issues make me grumble (those always make me grumble because it is my thing), but looking at the species used for this there are animals in that specific time frame that can work as analogs to the animals that are present in the sequence together. So I definitely can see it more like Southern North America somewhere between 70 and 67 MYA if anything. The generalized "65 Million Years Later" I know is mostly for the audience's sake.

Either way, I find myself in a place where I can forgive it since there are analogous animals in the formation during that time. The only outlier would be the Giganotosaurus. The other point here is I don't know the entire context of this scene and frankly, all of us probably won't know it for at least a year too. No point getting angry or upset about something like that until the entire context (seen the entire film) is known. The teaser is meant to excite and generate interest - it has succeeded in doing so.

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PostSubject: Re: The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions...   The prologue for Dominion has species that shouldn't be together. I have questions... Icon_minitimeSat Jul 03, 2021 5:31 pm

My theory regarding this preview (if it does appear in the film/OR in viral marketing)

It's a dodgson advertisement indicating how effective Giga will be at killing Rexy.

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