Is anybody else having second thoughts about this movie?

Robotpo wrote:

I'm personally not that excited for FK so far. It really does look like a half-assed TLW rehash coupled with a generic monster mansion story. But JW turned out to be better than I thought it looked from the marketing, so hopefully this will as well.

Nahh, half-assed ain't any way to describe this film. The fact they've gone through the effort to improve on things from the previous Jurassic World makes me believe they put much more passion into it this time around.

Another dinosaur round-up storyline on an abandoned island with the dinosaur(s) transported to someplace in CA where they run amok = rehash, hence my use of half-assed. If they had followed up on the potential of an all-mainland storyline that Trevorrow promised after JW, that would have actually be original and ambitious.

We don't know if they've improved on JW until it comes out. The Indoraptor scenes do look more atmospheric at least, so there's that.

Robotpo wrote:

Another dinosaur round-up storyline on an abandoned island with the dinosaur(s) transported to someplace in CA where they run amok = rehash, hence my use of half-assed. If they had followed up on the potential of an all-mainland storyline that Trevorrow promised after JW, that would have actually be original and ambitious.

We don't know if they've improved on JW until it comes out. The Indoraptor scenes do look more atmospheric at least, so there's that.

You can't just randomly have a Dinosaurs on the mainland out of nowhere, there has to be a bridge in the storyline. this film is the bridge and JW3 will likely be the Dinosaurs on the mainland.

Robotpo wrote:

Another dinosaur round-up storyline on an abandoned island with the dinosaur(s) transported to someplace in CA where they run amok = rehash, hence my use of half-assed. If they had followed up on the potential of an all-mainland storyline that Trevorrow promised after JW, that would have actually be original and ambitious.

We don't know if they've improved on JW until it comes out. The Indoraptor scenes do look more atmospheric at least, so there's that.

Plus, I can already see from the trailers what they've improved on since JW:

1. Cinematography.
2. Dinosaur Set-piece design
3. Direction
4. And giving the characters more clear morals and goals.

Except they already had a bridge with Wu taking the embryos off-site. All they had to do was breed some dinosaurs in a mainland lab and viola - new setting.

Trevorrow actually originally said JW was a bridge movie, and the next one would be different. Now he's saying that about the next one, so who knows?

I agree that the Indoraptor scenes look more promising that anything in JW really, in terms of direction/design ETC.

Robotpo wrote:

Except they already had a bridge with Wu taking the embryos off-site. All they had to do was breed some dinosaurs in a mainland lab and viola - new setting.

Trevorrow actually originally said JW was a bridge movie, and the next one would be different. Now he's saying that about the next one, so who knows?

I agree that the Indoraptor scenes look more promising that anything in JW really, in terms of direction/design ETC.

I wouldn't really qualify that scene to be a bridge, it was way too brief, whereas this film has 2 hours to establish a set up for the next film

While there are certainly parallels to TLW, I certainly don't think calling it a rehash is doing it justice either. This is a film about a cataclysmic event destroying the island, and a last ditch effort by our protagonists to try and save the dinosaurs before the species is wiped out completely, only to be double crossed by those funding the expedition. That's certainly not an element present in TLW, nor was the hybridization element or the dinosaur auction.

I dont understand how this is a rehash of The Lost World when The Lost World was about poaching dinosaurs off an island to throw into a smaller zoo in the middle of a big city and this film is about taking dinosaurs off an island because a volcano is threatening to wipe them off the face of the earth. The only difference is that the latter ended up being malicious as now theyre trying to sell the creatures.

Plus the majority of The Lost World was focused on the adventure on Isla Sorna and the conflict between the rival teams, with the mainland climax being a literal last minute addition to the film and many feeling it was out of place. I was only four when the film came out but based on what I saw in the trailers, there was no indication of the T. rex going to San Diego and I think the studio and Spielberg were hiding that part of the film.

With Fallen Kingdom, the evidence of a mainland setting was present from as soon as photos from the production emerged and subsequent trailers after the initial teaser showed us very clearly that we would see a LOT more of the mansion and InGen facility, and Trevorrow confirming that half of the film is constituted of this setting. They wren't being very secretive about it, and as soon as they learned that the volcano angle was putting audiences off they shifted focus. This is basically the opposite of The Lost World in both marketing and integration of San Diego in the finished film.

Tyrant Lizard wrote:

While there are certainly parallels to TLW, I certainly don't think calling it a rehash is doing it justice either. This is a film about a cataclysmic event destroying the island, and a last ditch effort by our protagonists to try and save the dinosaurs before the species is wiped out completely, only to be double crossed by those funding the expedition. That's certainly not an element present in TLW, nor was the hybridization element or the dinosaur auction.

It's also pretty safe to say the ending will be far more complicated than sending them back to an island. The ending will probably be an "oh shit" type thing.

It needs to be acknowledged that there's only so much you can do with a franchise like this. Even some of the new creative directions Trevorrow has taken have been heavily criticized.

^^ That's my problem with this movie - they aren't taking enough creative risks (for example, back on an island among the ruins of the park for the fourth time). They need to embrace new ideas, the reaction of the audience be damned. Look how successful the X-Men franchise has been with things like Deadpool and Logan. Jurassic could be just as malleable if they weren't so beholden to nostalgia.

Troyal1 wrote:

Tyrant Lizard wrote:

While there are certainly parallels to TLW, I certainly don't think calling it a rehash is doing it justice either. This is a film about a cataclysmic event destroying the island, and a last ditch effort by our protagonists to try and save the dinosaurs before the species is wiped out completely, only to be double crossed by those funding the expedition. That's certainly not an element present in TLW, nor was the hybridization element or the dinosaur auction.

It's also pretty safe to say the ending will be far more complicated than sending them back to an island. The ending will probably be an "oh shit" type thing.

The last shot will probably be the Mosasaur in the wave IMO. Where else would it fit in the film?

Robotpo wrote:

^^ That's my problem with this movie - they aren't taking enough creative risks. They need to embrace new ideas, the reaction of the audience be damned. Look how successful the X-Men franchise has been with things like Deadpool and Logan. Jurassic could be just as malleable if they weren't so beholden to nostalgia.

I mean, I kind of agree, but we've seen what the reaction has been to wiping out the dinosaur population on Sorna already. There have been paragraphs and paragraphs by people here as to why that shouldn't have happened. The reaction to the hybrid idea has been pretty negative, despite the Indominus actually being handled relatively well (imho). The reaction to the trained raptors has been mixed at best, with some people despising the relationship between Owen and Blue. We go back a few years, and the idea to replace the T.rex with the Spinosaurus was met with a horrible response.

The long and short of it is that any time this franchise has tried to take some sort of new creative direction, it's been dumped on. Sometimes rightfully so, sometimes not. It's all subjective. I actually think that, all things considered, they've done a relatively good job of balancing the new ideas with nostalgia. But with every fan seemingly wanting something different out of this franchise, I imagine it gets pretty difficult.

Robotpo wrote:

The last shot will probably be the Mosasaur in the wave IMO. Where else would it fit in the film?

If that does end up being the case, then it was pretty unforgivable to show it in the trailers

I don't think taking huge risks and flat out ignoring your audience in an established franchise works. We have seen how that worked out with Rian Johnson in The Last Jedi. He straight up said that he does not pay attention to fans wishes and that he "loved" the choices he made that made fans angry.

And what is the result of that? The Last Jedi is by far the most hated Star Wars movie and Rian Johnson is known as the man that made millions lose their interest in Star Wars.

But with Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom it is not as simple as safe or risky.

Universal does seem to be taking many risks with the hardcore fanbase (Destroying the classic Isla Nublar, making The Lost World, Jurassic Park 3 and Isla Sorna overall as irrelevant as possible and ignoring hardcore fans wishes like the Dilophosaurus).

But...On the other hand...

Universal is playing it a little too safe for the general public/casual fans by focusing mostly on trying to repeat many of the things that seemed to make a lot of money in Jurassic World (another plot that centers around a badass hybrid, Rexy, Blue fighting the hybrid on a heroic role once again, popular Dr. Malcolm back for nostalgia, and a lot of focus on the action with marvelesque humor).

I imagine Trevorrow figured that the more hardcore sect of fans would be able to handle the franchise taking some significant risks, and would be glad things aren't staying status-quo. Guess the jury is still out on that

And of course he's going to try to appeal to the general audience....Most of the people who see these films are part of the GA. JP/JW has a very small hardcore following when put up against the likes of Star Wars and Marvel.

Tyrant Lizard wrote:

Robotpo wrote:

^^ That's my problem with this movie - they aren't taking enough creative risks. They need to embrace new ideas, the reaction of the audience be damned. Look how successful the X-Men franchise has been with things like Deadpool and Logan. Jurassic could be just as malleable if they weren't so beholden to nostalgia.

I mean, I kind of agree, but we've seen what the reaction has been to wiping out the dinosaur population on Sorna already. There have been paragraphs and paragraphs by people here as to why that shouldn't have happened. The reaction to the hybrid idea has been pretty negative, despite the Indominus actually being handled relatively well (imho). The reaction to the trained raptors has been mixed at best, with some people despising the relationship between Owen and Blue. We go back a few years, and the idea to replace the T.rex with the Spinosaurus was met with a horrible response.

The long and short of it is that any time this franchise has tried to take some sort of new creative direction, it's been dumped on. Sometimes rightfully so, sometimes not. It's all subjective. I actually think that, all things considered, they've done a relatively good job of balancing the new ideas with nostalgia. But with every fan seemingly wanting something different out of this franchise, I imagine it gets pretty difficult.

Perhaps it's a case of needing new people who have a sense of what fans and the GA want. Look at Kevin Fiege and how successful the MCU has been.

Rhedosaurus wrote:

Perhaps it's a case of needing new people who have a sense of what fans and the GA want. Look at Kevin Fiege and how successful the MCU has been.

Problem is, the MCU can use the tens of thousands of comics made as inspiration for potentially dozens of movies that can take place in a world where humans co-exist with ancient civilisations, aliens and gods virtually anything can happen.

Whereas Jurassic Park universe is based off of two books, which some can arguably say is stretching the source material to its limit for, and the world in which it is set in is, with the exception of some incredible technological advancements, essentially the same world as ours. It’s relatively grounded in reality.

Gondrasia wrote:

Rhedosaurus wrote:

Perhaps it's a case of needing new people who have a sense of what fans and the GA want. Look at Kevin Fiege and how successful the MCU has been.

Problem is, the MCU can use the tens of thousands of comics made as inspiration for potentially dozens of movies that can take place in a world where humans co-exist with ancient civilisations, aliens and gods virtually anything can happen.

Whereas Jurassic Park universe is based off of two books, which some can arguably say is stretching the source material to its limit for, and the world in which it is set in is, with the exception of some incredible technological advancements, essentially the same world as ours. It’s relatively grounded in reality.

True, but that doesn't mean that it can't do more stuff. What about another company cloning dinosaurs in the Congo Basin where dinosaur sightings (Mokele Mbembe) happen? The place would be perfect to clone dinosaurs since dinosaur sightings around the Congo Basin and other places-The Amazon Rain Forest and parts of Asia-are dismissed. Few would suspect that a company can clone dinosaurs there.

Rhedosaurus wrote:

True, but that doesn't mean that it can't do more stuff. What about another company cloning dinosaurs in the Congo Basin where dinosaur sightings (Mokele Mbembe) happen? The place would be perfect to clone dinosaurs since dinosaur sightings around the Congo Basin and other places-The Amazon Rain Forest and parts of Asia-are dismissed. Few would suspect that a company can clone dinosaurs there.

They are doing "more stuff", and that's exactly the problem people have with it. Exploring hybridization? Nope, we don't like that. Replacing the Rex with another apex predator? Hell no. Exploring domestication? Nope. Bringing them to the mainland? Nuh-uh. A natural disaster threatening to wipe them out? Apparently not.

Any time they've tried to do "more stuff", it's turned people off in one way or another, leading me to the conclusion that people just don't know what the hell they want when it comes to this franchise. People scream for change, and when they do, the ideas are deemed idiotic. People scream for nostalgia, and when it's given to them, people criticize it for being too rooted in nostalgia. The wants of the hardcore base and the GA don't line up...Hell, the wants of the hardcore base don't even line up with other sects of the hardcore base. At this point I'm totally on board with Universal not taking the hardcore fans into consideration because, quite frankly, it's such an insignificantly sized base with such a varying group of opinions that trying to adhere to their wants would be a fools errand.

The stuff they're doing isnt the stuff people want, that's why everyone is up in arms over every little move Universal makes. If Universal even thought of taking an idea the fanbase had, another portion of that fanbase would come behind them and go "what is Universal DOING?! They dont care about us or our ideas!"

Tyrant Lizard wrote:

Rhedosaurus wrote:

True, but that doesn't mean that it can't do more stuff. What about another company cloning dinosaurs in the Congo Basin where dinosaur sightings (Mokele Mbembe) happen? The place would be perfect to clone dinosaurs since dinosaur sightings around the Congo Basin and other places-The Amazon Rain Forest and parts of Asia-are dismissed. Few would suspect that a company can clone dinosaurs there.

They are doing "more stuff", and that's exactly the problem people have with it. Exploring hybridization? Nope, we don't like that. Replacing the Rex with another apex predator? Hell no. Exploring domestication? Nope. Bringing them to the mainland? Nuh-uh. A natural disaster threatening to wipe them out? Apparently not.

Any time they've tried to do "more stuff", it's turned people off in one way or another, leading me to the conclusion that people just don't know what the hell they want when it comes to this franchise. People scream for change, and when they do, the ideas are deemed idiotic. People scream for nostalgia, and when it's given to them, people criticize it for being too rooted in nostalgia. The wants of the hardcore base and the GA don't line up...Hell, the wants of the hardcore base don't even line up with other sects of the hardcore base. At this point I'm totally on board with Universal not taking the hardcore fans into consideration because, quite frankly, it's such an insignificantly sized base with such a varying group of opinions that trying to adhere to their wants would be a fools errand.

But isn't that kind of logic much like Sony had with GB2016? After all, Ghostbusters has a small, yet vocal fanbase, and look what happened when Sony threw out Ghostbusters 3 in favor of a SJW powered reboot. I am all for trying SOME new ideas, but not go overboard. You need a balance between new and old. This is why I think that some new people with fresh, yet basic/common sense ideas are needed.

It is admittedly tough to meet everyone's demands, (GA, casual fans, hardcore fans vs other hardcore fans, ETC). That's why IMO they need a real creative vision and talent, which would result in a genuinely good movie, which would get people (or most people) on-board. Keep in mind, when Spielberg made JP it was considered risky, despite being based on a best-selling book, because there hadn't been a successful dinosaur movie in decades..and everyone got behind it when it turned out to be a great movie.

The problem with JW IMO, is that it's simply spectacularly mediocre, which is why there so much backlash or debate over it. If they made a great movie with fresh ideas, on par with JP or TLW, people would embrace it. The problem is there's only one Spielberg (and even he isn't the same Spielberg anymore).

Tyrant Lizard wrote:

Rhedosaurus wrote:

True, but that doesn't mean that it can't do more stuff. What about another company cloning dinosaurs in the Congo Basin where dinosaur sightings (Mokele Mbembe) happen? The place would be perfect to clone dinosaurs since dinosaur sightings around the Congo Basin and other places-The Amazon Rain Forest and parts of Asia-are dismissed. Few would suspect that a company can clone dinosaurs there.

They are doing "more stuff", and that's exactly the problem people have with it. Exploring hybridization? Nope, we don't like that. Replacing the Rex with another apex predator? Hell no. Exploring domestication? Nope. Bringing them to the mainland? Nuh-uh. A natural disaster threatening to wipe them out? Apparently not.

Any time they've tried to do "more stuff", it's turned people off in one way or another, leading me to the conclusion that people just don't know what the hell they want when it comes to this franchise. People scream for change, and when they do, the ideas are deemed idiotic. People scream for nostalgia, and when it's given to them, people criticize it for being too rooted in nostalgia. The wants of the hardcore base and the GA don't line up...Hell, the wants of the hardcore base don't even line up with other sects of the hardcore base. At this point I'm totally on board with Universal not taking the hardcore fans into consideration because, quite frankly, it's such an insignificantly sized base with such a varying group of opinions that trying to adhere to their wants would be a fools errand.  

Back in the day before Jurassic World, most fans were not exactly screaming for major changes.

And the hardcore fanbase has had similar wishes for many years. Many hardcore fans wanted to see a Dilophosaurus once again, many hardcore fans wanted more action scenes with herbivores, and as you can see most hardcore fans seem to love Isla Sorna.

Robotpo wrote:

It is admittedly tough to meet everyone's demands, (GA, casual fans, hardcore fans vs other hardcore fans, ETC). That's why IMO they need a real creative vision and talent, which would result in a genuinely good movie, which would get people (or most people) on-board. Keep in mind, when Spielberg made JP it was considered risky, despite being based on a best-selling book, because there hadn't been a successful dinosaur movie in decades..and everyone got behind it when it turned out to be a great movie.

The problem with JW IMO, is that it's simply spectacularly mediocre, which is why there so much backlash or debate over it. If they made a great movie with fresh ideas, on par with JP or TLW, people would embrace it. The problem is there's only one Spielberg (and even he isn't the same Spielberg anymore).

That's all well and good, and I can agree to a certain extent that at the end of the day, quality is what matters above all else (although I enjoyed JW quite a bit and consider it a quality film). That being said, while there is certainly a fair amount of criticism regarding the overall quality of the product, a lot of criticisms (especially here) are being thrown at the creative decisions and risks that the franchise is taking, as opposed to the quality of the films. That's not to say that creative risks shouldn't be criticized, but it does need to be acknowledged that there are only so many directions this franchise can go before it either gets stuck in a rut or falls completely off the rails. It's a balancing act. Having another company like Ingen make dinosaurs *gasp* somewhere else would just be a redundant retread, but something like the Sayles script goes too far the other way. It needs to be somewhere in the middle in order to reach as wide an audience as possible, and to Universal's credit, I think they've done a relatively good job of introducing new ideas while still keeping some of the old as well.

I do agree that if FK does turn out to be a step above JW that much of the "creative decisions" will likely be forgiven by the public. I just worry that people are so closed minded and entitled when it comes to this franchise that even if they do get a quality film, it won't be exactly what they want and they'll continue to bitch and bitch and bitch, to the point where the film will be seen in a negative light (even if it is great) and hurt the franchise as a whole.

#TRexSpinorematch wrote:

Back in the day before Jurassic World, most fans were not exactly screaming for major changes.

And the hardcore fanbase has had similar wishes for many years. Many hardcore fans wanted to see a Dilophosaurus once again, many hardcore fans wanted more action scenes with herbivores, and as you can see most hardcore fans seem to love Isla Sorna.

And how long before "We're going back to the island...again?" type comments begin to float in. It was already starting to happen around the time JP3 came out. The films were starting to get redundant, and the numbers were falling significantly as a result. That being said, the one big change that was made- the Spino replacing the Rex- was also met with a lot of criticism. Like I said, it's about finding the right balance of new and old- an "edge of chaos", so to speak.

The problem is not change or lack of change.

The reason fans are complaining is because what has been changed in the Jurassic Park franchise is the things that fans love the franchise for.

Like for example, you can change things up a bit by having new characters take center stage. That is change that does not bother most fans since it does not alter the things fans love about the franchise.

But when producers are fully aware that some element of the franchise is very dear to fans and still decide to change it like it was never relevant... You can't say it's the fans fault for not being able to accept change.

#TRexSpinorematch wrote:

The problem is not change or lack of change.

The reason fans are complaining is because what has been changed in the Jurassic Park franchise is the things that fans love the franchise for.

Like for example, you can change things up a bit by having new characters take center stage. That is change that does not bother most fans since it does not alter the things fans love about the franchise.

But when producers are fully aware that some element of the franchise is very dear to fans and still decide to change it like it was never relevant... You can't say it's the fans fault for not being able to accept change.

But that's the thing, they're not saying Sorna was "never relevant". That's a narrative that you're creating. Sorna might not be relevant to the story that they're trying to tell now, but they never said it was "never relevant". On the contrary, if they didn't deem Sorna relevant, they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of providing us with a canonical explanation of where Sorna stands right now, they simply wouldn't have addressed it at all.

Colin Trevorrow himself said that TLW anf JP3 are being "put to the side" before Jurassic World. And the tie in websites do mention Sorna, but they try to downplay it's importance. That is trying to make something not relevant indeed, not me creating a narrative.

Because Jurassic World wasnt about TLW or Jurassic Park III...it was trying to rebuild something that started with the first film. Being "put to the side" doesnt equal = "no longer part of the story". People started running with that after he said it, hence pushing that narrative. In order to no longer make TLW relevant, you would have to ignore John Hammond being in it, and the references to what happened to the first park being made over and over again.

We know The Lost World is not being removed from canon but when both Trevorrow and Connoly make it clear that they only really like the first film and then when the second sequel in a row seems to once again ignore the events of TLW and then we have a tie in website that explains why the events of TLW are irrelevant to this story, then it is not fans creating a narrative. It is Universal making it clear that they are trying to downplay TLW as much as possible.

In fact one can watch Jurassic World (and soon Fallen Kingdom) without watching The Lost World and you would not miss a beat.

Then why not either remove TLW/JP3 from the canon or not reference anything to do with those films at all?

Perhaps it's possible that the events of the two sequels simply aren't overly relevant to the story that they're trying to tell?