Is anybody else having second thoughts about this movie?

Tyrant Lizard wrote:

people just don't know what the hell they want when it comes to this franchise

Nuf said.

It's the same thing I find in EVERY franchise...

CT-1138 wrote:

Tyrant Lizard wrote:

people just don't know what the hell they want when it comes to this franchise

Nuf said.

It's the same thing I find in EVERY franchise...

To be fair, that is not really the fault of the fans. So much time passed between JP3 and JW, the 'dead period' as some fans call it, that it was inevitable that so much fan ideas were to pop up like crazy about what direction this franchise should go. Even more so with how little JP stuff we got in between.

Well, humans generally are a fractured people. It's not the fan's as a collective whole's fault they don't know what they want, but to say it's the studio's fault that they can't juggle between a fractured and disagreeable fanbase while keeping it watered down enough as to not lose the general audience isn't right either. Just because the studio didn't make a movie that panders to idiotic fan theories or makes a movie that strokes the egos of individual minority fans, doesn't make the movie bad. It just makes that fan a stubborn old curmudgeon who is not open to change or new ideas.

CT-1138 wrote:

Well, humans generally are a fractured people. It's not the fan's as a collective whole's fault they don't know what they want, but to say it's the studio's fault that they can't juggle between a fractured and disagreeable fanbase while keeping it watered down enough as to not lose the general audience isn't right either. Just because the studio didn't make a movie that panders to idiotic fan theories or makes a movie that strokes the egos of individual minority fans, doesn't make the movie bad. It just makes that fan a stubborn old curmudgeon who is not open to change or new ideas.

I don't totally disagree that many fans are old and stubborn, but shouldn't a studios try to mix the old and new as a general rule/norm to keep the old guard and new fans both happy?

Of course they should, but how much should be in the mix is also up for debate.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying Fallen Kingdom will be a terrible movie.

But this is film number 5 in a very well established franchise. It is only natural for fans to think some things will happen.

I don't think it's right to say that all hardcore fans are just stubborn people with crazy fan theories and that's why they should not be taken into account.

It is also wrong to say that if anyone is not thrilled about Fallen Kingdom it's because it does not pander to their personal theories.

Sometimes fans just don't like something. Saying that if they don't like something it is because there is something wrong with them causes an even bigger fracture in the fandom.

See the Last Jedi. The majority seems to really dislike this film. But there is a minority that really loves the film that labels anyone who does not like the film as "crazy fanboy haters who whine because they don't want Star Wars to grow".

And what is the result of that? The Star Wars fandom has arguably never been at a worst state.

I'd say that it's the inverse of what you said about TLJ. I'd say there's a very vocal minority who scream to the rooftops about what they hate. But, that's fandom these days. Those who dislike seem to have a louder and prouder voice than those who do like. That's kinda what I was getting at. The vocal minority who do have crazy fan theories and are unwilling to accept anything new DO have something wrong with them. And I don't care WHO that offends. I don't brag much, but I will proudly say I'm as big a fan of this franchise as anybody, and have been acknowledged as a walking encyclopedia of it even by the people who don't like me. Liking or disliking a film in a franchise doesn't make you a fan. But those who sit around and nitpick and scream about how they don't like a movie til they're blue in the face certainly make me question what that says about them as people.

Art is relative and subjective. There is no such thing as the correct way to be a fan. There is no such thing as the correct way to feel about a piece of art and there is no such thing as true fan. Those are all imaginary and subjective standards. People can like or dislike whatever they want as much as they want.

But what we can do is see that the amount of people that dislike The Last Jedi do in fact seem to be more than those who like it. Not only did the movie have the biggest box office drop in history in it's second week but also has a 47% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes and then you go to youtube and you will see that almost every video about the movie has has a lot more negative comments than positive comments and on top of that there's Disney trying to to damage control by having Rian Johnson and Mark Hamill go on tour to try to explain the movie months after it was released. None of that happened with The Force Awakens.

So there is a significant backlash. And it is not just because it did not pander to fan theories. The movie did a lot of things that make no sense (If force ghosts have always had powers, why don't they help in previous battles?), among other things. So it is not just a few fanboys trying to nitpick the movie. I have friends who are very very casual Star Wars fans and they called me right after they had seen it to tell me that was a very dissapointing end to Luke.

YouTube rants and anecdotes is hardly the stuff of empirical evidence. You might as well be looking for something positive on 4Chan and Reddit. Were a lot of people be disappointed because their idiotic fan theories weren't supported? Yeah, but then again people hate the PT because it didn't go their way. "The PT sucked, this is how I would have done it instead." Every damn day for 19 years. Now it's the same with the ST. "It didn't go my way, therefore it sucked." I'm sick of people hating on shit because it didn't go their way. It's the epitome of entitled. The same audience that turns their nose up to actually good filmmakers like James Cameron and Steven Spielberg, through their dollars to the feet of the likes of Michael Bay.

CT-1138 wrote:

YouTube rants and anecdotes is hardly the stuff of empirical evidence. You might as well be looking for something positive on 4Chan and Reddit. Were a lot of people be disappointed because their idiotic fan theories weren't supported? Yeah, but then again people hate the PT because it didn't go their way. "The PT sucked, this is how I would have done it instead." Every damn day for 19 years. Now it's the same with the ST. "It didn't go my way, therefore it sucked." I'm sick of people hating on shit because it didn't go their way. It's the epitome of entitled. The same audience that turns their nose up to actually good filmmakers like James Cameron and Steven Spielberg, through their dollars to the feet of the likes of Michael Bay.

Geroge Lucas will always be a great idea man. Personally, I like the PT, but I think his ideas with other film makers behind them and a little less CGI, it'd have been huge. And even with all the backlash, the prequels were huge for their time. But that's just my two cents on that particular thing.

Sadly, that's the internet these days, and has been for a while. Anyone can bitch behind anonymity, or on Facebook, being many miles away from others. Those who tend to hate things the most seem to be the most vocal. I think a problem regarding JP is a lot of people have fond memories of the original film, but tend to write off the sequels, and think of it as popcorn flicks, much like the Bay Transformers. JW was certainly a different film, but I still wouldn't classify it among films like those. May be the nature of Hollywood these days too. Look at Star Trek, that was a series based on utopian ideas and for the reboots they turned them into big sci-fi action films.

EDIT: Would like to say maybe we shouldn't take this too much further. I feel like we're going pretty far away for Fallen Kingdom here.

Again... I know a lot if people who are not even Star Wars fans (Those who only see the movies once and not care about them since).

So they did not go to see The Last Jedi with personal wishes or "crazy fanboy theories" but they disliked the film. So to suggest that whenever a sequel is hated it is only because fans had crazy fanboy theories that did not happen is not only wrong, but it is also ignoring all of the other problems the movie could have (Plot holes, and so on).

I think it is unfair and unrealistic to ask everyone to accept and love a film as it is without having a personal opinion.

On an unrelated note (or so it would seem), it saddens my heart that this thread is so active while the General Fallen Kingdom News Thread is so dead on a day where the first 5 minutes of the film was actually shown to people. Kinda goes to show the effect that this "discussion" is having on our little fandom.

I don't think that has anything to do with this discussion or the fans mindset.

It just so happens that 2 of the major Jurassic Park fan forums just so happen to have very little active members who post on a regular basis. Both Mainframe and Outpost have less than 10 or so active posters who post on a daily basis. That is the reason why to some it seems like the hardcore Jurassic fanbase is so small, tiny and microscopic. That is also the reason why I tell others to not use fan forums as an indicator of what the fanbase wants or the mindset of the fanbase.

You go to Youtube and it is a whole different story. You see millions and millions of videos made by millions and millions of hardcore fans themselves. Wich is why I argue that although it is true that our hardcore fandom is not as large as Star Wars (what is?) It is not as small as people make it out to be.